Remove this ad

Lead

Jul 24 13 4:00 AM

Tags : :

The Russian grizzly bear averages roughly 580 pounds. The Siberian tiger averages roughly 425 pounds. At normal maximum size, the bear can be within the 800 pound range and the tiger within the 500 pound range. 
The tiger is, in my personal opinion, the single greatest terrestrial predator on earth. He is a lone killer of big game. The three top prey animals of the Siberian tiger are deer, elk ( called moose in America ), and wild boar. The Russian wild boar is himself a formidable adversary. These are the biggest wild hogs on earth, reaching up to 600 pounds. Occasionally, a tiger will acquire a taste for bears. In Siberia, there are two species of bears; the Asian black bear and the brown bear. The Ussuri brown bear is also called the black grizzly or Russian grizzly. Since the black bear can dart up a tree at the first sign of danger, more grizzlies are killed by tigers than black bears. 
Tigers hunt juvenile bears. They are looking for food, not a fight. On rare occasion, an adult sow grizzly is killed. The grizzly sow normally weighs within the 300 pound range but can reach a weight within the 400 pound range on occasion. Tigers do not hunt adult boar grizzlies as prey potential. 
The most likely location for a tiger vs grizzly fight is at a kill site. Some bears have been known to habitually trail tigers so as to usurp their kills. Such a grizzly is called a satellite bear. The remains of such sites have been investigated, but as far as I know, such an event has never been actually witnessed. According to the experts, the grizzly normally dominates such a site due to his size advantage. A typical boar grizzly normally has a weight advantage of roughly 200 pounds; but sometimes much more. 
I know of only one documented case of a tiger killing an adult boar grizzly. The tiger is said to have been a huge specimen. This happened in Jankowski. I have found no documentation to verify. An adult male tiger was killed by a grizzly in the 1943 Amur River fight. Again, I can present no proof. In 2000, a boar grizzly went on a tiger killing spree. Among the tigers killed were 2 adult females ( according to Peter ). Here again, I have no proof to show. 
We could fill pages with historical fights in captivity from ancient times right up to within our own century. In those fights, sometimes the tiger is victorious, sometimes the bear. But, fights between captive predators are proof of nothing. It is those encounters in the wild that have meaning. 

Last Edited By: Old Ephraim Jul 25 13 5:41 AM. Edited 4 times

Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad
Remove this ad

#1 [url]

Jul 24 13 4:43 AM

http://www.northernforum.org/servlet/download?id=3167
"The only natural enemy of the Amur tiger is the brown bear. Adult male brown
bears can attack female and young tigers with the intention of eating them. Brown
and Himalayan bears also scavenge on tiger kills and can chase tigers off their kill.
This means that tigers have to kill additional prey."
Source:
http://www.wwf.ru/data/pub/species/strategy_tiger_eng.pdf 

 
ddd16b6a9617f53fe0bc1647f02a97d114a6e29b

Quote    Reply   

#2 [url]

Jul 24 13 5:29 AM

Tigers hunt bears as a prey animal; not often but more often than bears hunting tigers. In fact, I believe that when a grizzly kills a tigress or a juvenile tiger and eats the other predator; it happens after a chance meeting ( my opinion ). But a tiger will specifically hunt bears. For this reason, more bears are killed by tigers than the other way around. It is the tiger who chooses which bear to ambush. Not every tiger stalks bears. When it comes to tigers hunting bears, it is individual tigers doing so. Looking at tigers as a species, they have been known to hunt and kill elephants, rhinoceros, gaur, pythons, crocodiles, and bears. These are all simply individual choices made by certain individuals; not all. 

On the Siberian tiger prey chart: Manchurian wapiti, wild boar, sika deer, Siberian roe deer, bear, and others. 
 
4271616b9d18fd36e374720529f158ceb7a1a336

Last Edited By: Old Ephraim Jul 24 13 5:36 AM. Edited 2 times.

Quote    Reply   

#3 [url]

Jul 25 13 5:52 AM

There is no actual documented proof of any healthy adult male tiger / healthy adult male grizzly confrontation. There are simply stories. Some perhaps by trustworthy sources; but nothing than could stand up in court as scientific fact. This I have recently learned. There are zero reliable witnesses who can confirm anything on either side of the debate. The same holds true for the ever so popular lion vs tiger debate; which I view as exceedingly boring.

Last Edited By: Old Ephraim Jul 25 13 5:54 AM. Edited 1 time.

Quote    Reply   

#4 [url]

Jul 29 13 12:44 AM

A lot of people started overrating the tiger ever since that guy on national geographic said that Siberian tigers were known for killing brown bears. People regularly will look at that as a source, but not critically think that through. Tigers don't regularly hunt adult male brown bears. Something like that would probably happen in times of starvation in desperation and it would likely end in death for the cat.

Fights between these two are extremely rare and tigers have only been documented preying on female bears and cubs. I am a tiger fan but I also respect the bear and know what they are capable of. I also know both cat and bear behavior. A tiger fan can talk to you until you are blue in the face on how a tiger fights better or how a tiger will kill a bear more often than not but here is my problem. They act like that would happen in any case these animals meet each other. Tigers will AVOID male grizzly bears much more often than not yet male bears have been documented stealing kills from tigers. Obviously there is a reason why tigers don't target male bears. Very likely, they have before and have gotten killed trying to fight the bear. Its the exact same reason why male lions usually won't target fully grown buffalo unless it had back up.

Then they bring up "Yeah a tiger won't fight a bear unless it was forced to fight." The problem with that is, is that a lot of those arguments eventually come down to stamina. A tiger is very explosive at first but because all cats are short winded, they can't fight ferociously forever. They will tire and bears are built for stamina. This covers up for their lack of agility. They can last a lot longer and have a layer of fat and a lot of muscle for protection. Both for defense and attack. The point is, is that the tiger will at some point tire and when it does, the bear pretty much takes it. Very similar to Muhammad Ali. He would allow his opponents to beat him up at first. He would keep a good defense while the other guy is unleashing all of their power and adrenaline. At some point, the guy would tire and then Muhammad would go for it. The other guy would try to defend but their fatigue would get to them and they can no longer defend themselves. They are totally exposed and then Ali would knock them out.

The bear in a way is Muhammad Ali. It can defend itself for a long time. A tiger would have to kill or seriously injure the bear in the beginning of the battle. It would have to be fast. Tigers have indeed killed bears before by ambush. They would target the spine or the throat and the fight would be over in minutes. But if the bear is ready, it is not going to allow the tiger to target those areas. The tiger can try, but the bear will simply wear it out. The tiger can for a while defend itself with its hind legs, but a determined angry bear can indeed get past those claws and cause a lot of damage to the tigers chest or stomach.

I would support a tiger more if the tiger fought the bear without using so much of its power. Controlled fighting basically. If it was smart and knew not to wear itself out and mostly dodge, then I think the tiger chances goes way up. A tiger fighting for its life vs a bear fighting for its life, I support the bear because it won't have to worry about fatigue.

My dad is 220 pounds and has taken down people much heavier and stronger than him by controlled technique. He didn't get mad and just act on instinct like animals do. He remained calm and used good technique and took down his opponents. If he had went mad and exploded on those much stronger opponents,he would have lost those fights. He would have wore himself out against those guys and get beat up.
If a tiger did exactly that against a bear, then I would support the tiger. The problem is, is that because they act completely on instinct, they would simply go all out against the bear and get tired and eventually, its defenses will weaken up to the point where the bear will simply disembowel the cat.

A lot of tiger fans also like to look at what the tiger can do and only look at the bears disadvantages. They compare them and then give a bad argument on why the tiger would win. They come off as biased or very silly. They look at only one side.

Some tiger fans are just complete idiots who make up what they WANT TO HAPPEN. Check out these ridiculous videos.




But I am done for now. You get the point. Tigers rarely target male bears.

Check out my new site.
http://natureandman.yuku.com/

Quote    Reply   

#5 [url]

Jul 29 13 4:11 AM

To start with, I openly admit up front that I am biased for the grizzly. Nearly every poster on animal face-off sites is biased with extremely few exceptions. Yet, how many are honest enough to admit it. But, biased though I am, I do my very best to keep it honest. I always try to give the other predators credit where credit is due. For instance, the big cats are far more efficient hunters and killers of large herbivores. A big cat has stronger jaws and pure carnivore teeth. A big cat is faster and has greater agility than a bear. A big cat can make incredible leaps both horizontally and vertically while a bear can jump no more than a few feet. I even admit that at weight parity, the lion or tiger has roughly ( in my opinion ) a 50% chance of killing the grizzly.

Quote    Reply   

#6 [url]

Jul 30 13 8:10 AM

Everyone is biased to a certain extent. That's why I find it funny when both lion and tiger fan get mad because someone is being biased. We practice being biased everyday. Like I like chocolate more than vanilla. I am biased for chocolate because of my preference. I practice my bias everyday and so does everyone else. Most of the people who complain about someone being biased over a certain animal are kids to be honest. I'm one of the few "kids" (I am 17) who will openly admit that I am also slightly biased towards bears. I really think that in a fight, the bear would win more often than not and I am slightly biased for tigers as well. I think the tiger would win more often than not but I would never allow myself to become totally one sided. I would never discredit a specific animal regardless which animals are fighting.

Check out my new site.
http://natureandman.yuku.com/

Quote    Reply   

#7 [url]

Jul 31 13 2:47 AM

I now have to tread quietly on AVA. Peter is scrutinizing my posts. He is even telling me that my posts copied directly from books which have long been considered as quality books are not reliable information and should not be posted. Peter is highly educated and knowledgeable, but biased for the tiger. It appears to me that the tiger fan-boys can say pretty much what they want, while I have to choose my words carefully.
Read my posts on http://animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/topic/4243/Books-on-our-favorite-predators#.UfjrKdK1GTo
and on http://animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/topic/1991/Male-brown-bears-predatory-reach-male-tigers-simili?page=38#.UfjrZNK1GTo

Quote    Reply   

#8 [url]

Jul 31 13 10:41 AM

So books are now unreliable? People argue that most internet information is unreliable but now suddenly books aren't?
It seems that when people don't like certain information, they instantly claim it as unreliable or lies. I am not saying that peter is doing that but I am noticing a pattern with tiger and lion fans doing this. Just look at the thread back on AVA about tiger mortality rates. People are arguing back and forth about which cat fights the most and both of them are saying that their information isn't reliable.

Check out my new site.
http://natureandman.yuku.com/

Quote    Reply   

#9 [url]

Jul 31 13 11:32 AM

I would bet that the books Peter would recommend are written by tiger lovers who know little about bears. The kids, Vodmeister, Pockets, and Street can post any ridiculous thing they want to; they are tiger fan-boys. If you will read  http://animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/topic/1991/Male-brown-bears-predatory-reach-male-tigers-simili?page=1  starting at page #1, you might find it interesting. This is located in the Premier League where it was started by a tiger fan-boy. Throughout this debate, the tiger fan-boys just sound stupid. I also noticed that Peter will defend those fan-boys even against the finest posters on any of our yuku animal face-off sites. I noticed too that Peter will post data or the results of his studies; leaving out such things as the bears killed by tigers are juveniles or she-bears; attempting for it to read as if tigers are fighting and killing adult male brown bears. I will no longer post anything in the Premier League; including answering the insults from Street or Pockets. In fact, I do not plan to answer any post those kids make. You might notice that I do not refer to you as "kid", because you show maturity in your posting. When a boy reaches his teens; being a man or a boy is determined not so much by age as by maturity. I joined the USMC at the age of 17; turned 18 at Paris Island, SC. 

Last Edited By: Old Ephraim Aug 1 13 7:16 AM. Edited 2 times.

Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad

#10 [url]

Aug 24 13 3:59 AM

I have recently discovered evidence from Russian experts on this subject matter that the Ussuri brown bear can reach a healthy weight of 1,000+ pounds though the average mature boar weighs closer to 600 pounds. As for brown bear vs tiger; there is a very good reason why we have a total lack of evidence to support either of these two apex predators. Mutual avoidance. 

( A ) A mature male tiger will never under any circumstances stalk a mature male brown bear as potential prey. 
( B ) There is a total lack of evidence to suggest that a brown bear will attempt to usurp a kill from a mature male tiger. 
My personal conclusions:  
( A ) The tiger is seeking a meal, not a fight. He is certainly not going to ambush a beast that would more than likely kill him. Comparison; a hungry Bengal tiger will not ambush a mature male rhinoceros.  
( B ) Brown bears are omnivores. Though more than capable, bears do not like to fight. With a substantial weight advantage, the bear could certainly usurp a kill. But, should the tiger stand his ground and defend the carcass, the bear would likely receive battle wounds. A single carcass just wouldn't be worth the risk. 
















Last Edited By: Old Ephraim Aug 24 13 4:15 AM. Edited 1 time.

Quote    Reply   

#11 [url]

Aug 24 13 9:39 AM

I'm sorry but anyone who thinks that tigers will actually stalk and kill male grizzly bears without being desperate would be classified as a fanboy. Yes they go after sub adults and females but they will rarely attack a fully grown male brown bear. Most of that happened when national geographic said that tigers are known for doing just that. The learning system is stupid.

Check out my new site.
http://natureandman.yuku.com/

Quote    Reply   

#13 [url]

Aug 27 13 2:00 AM

BrotherBear wrote:
Thus far there is not one single thread of evidence that a tiger has ever killed a healthy mature male brown bear under any circumstances. It simply doesn't happen. However, I have yet to find any reliable data on the brown bear killing a healthy mature male tiger. Therefore, it works both ways. 
In my opinion, over the course of the past 100,000 years or more, within the wilderness of Siberia, there has certainly been many confrontations between brown bear and tiger. I strongly believe that a bear weighing 800+ pounds will not hesitate to usurp a kill from a tiger ranging within the 400 pound range. This is no different than a 400 pound grizzly usurping a carcass from a 200 pound cougar, which happens very frequently. 


Quote    Reply   

#14 [url]

Aug 30 13 3:21 AM

After reading through the topic: Male brown bears are not out of of the predatory reach of male tigers if of similiar size. by the Premier League at AVA, I learned some interesting facts:
#1 - Nearly every scientific expert who studies the wildlife of Siberia including those who specialize in the Siberian tiger agree that a large mature male brown bear can and does dominate encounters between bear and tiger over a carcass.
#2 - Only mature male Siberian tigers regularly hunt bears. They primarily hunt juvenile brown bears but have been known to kill adult she-bears on rare occasion. The two most famous "bear killers" were Misha and Dale, two prime male tigers. Out of the numerous bears these two tigers killed, they only killed two adult she-bears each.
#3 - One tigress killed a brown bear heavier than herself. This she-bear was much shorter than the tigress in length and height, but she was very fat. Most likely, this she-bear was fattened up for her long Winter sleep. This was not a bear bigger than the tigress that killed her. 

#4 - There are very few cases of female tigers killing brown bears. These can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Only mature male Siberian tigers regularly hunt bears. 

Last Edited By: Old Ephraim Aug 30 13 3:32 AM. Edited 2 times.

Quote    Reply   

#15 [url]

Sep 6 13 3:26 PM

Brotherbear,
malikc6,

What's been up both of you, it's been a long time.


A guy on W.A.E. have documented accounts of what I believe to be male black grizzly vs male Amur tiger. The accounts said fights between the two were about 50/50.


Brotherbear,
Bear is spelled bear, NOT boar.

Last Edited By: firestone Sep 6 13 3:30 PM. Edited 2 times.

Quote    Reply   

#17 [url]

Sep 10 13 4:41 AM

firestone wrote:
Brotherbear,
malikc6,

What's been up both of you, it's been a long time.


A guy on W.A.E. have documented accounts of what I believe to be male black grizzly vs male Amur tiger. The accounts said fights between the two were about 50/50.


Brotherbear,
Bear is spelled bear, NOT boar.
Hello Firestone. A male bear is called boar, a female sow. But, the confusion is understood.  smiley: wink 
I am banned fron W.A.E. - can you copy and paste the account?

Last Edited By: Old Ephraim Sep 10 13 4:43 AM. Edited 1 time.

Quote    Reply   

#18 [url]

Aug 7 14 9:50 AM

In my own words - I have yet to find any reliable records of a confrontation between a healthy mature male brown bear and a tiger in the wild. However, I have discovered numerous accounts of brown bear and tiger encounters in captivity. In each and every face-off encounter between a healthy mature male brown bear and a tiger that I have thus far found, the bear defeated the tiger.

Although according to the statistics found in these recorded events indicate that the brown bear always wins this fight, I refuse to be so arrogant. I know that in a fight, the unusual and seemingly impossible can and sometimes do occur. I therefore graciously and conservatively estimate that a healthy mature male brown bear will be victorious in a face-off confrontation with a tiger 90% of the time.

There have been two known recorded face-off encounters between a healthy mature female brown bear and a mature male tiger. Now understand that in Siberia, tigers prey on bears. However, tigers hunt only juvenile, old, or sick brown bears. The only exception is that on extremely rare occasion, tigers have been known to ambush and kill adult she-bears. In one such case, the mature male tiger named Dale ambushed a large she-bear. But, for some reason, the ambush went wrong. Dale weighed 445 pounds. The she-bear weighed 440 pounds. She remains the largest bear on record ever killed by a tiger. Most likely, Dale simply misjudged the size of his intended prey. The she-bear was able to shake him off and turn an ambush into a face-to-face confrontation. Only after a fierce and bloody fight was Dale able to kill the she-bear and limp away to lick his wounds.

The second face-off encounter between a mature female brown bear and a mature male tiger involved two predators owned by the famous lion tamer Clyde Beatty. The tiger's name was Prince. The bear was named Doris. The big male tiger openly attacked the she-bear. In retaliation, Doris killed Prince. These two recorded events leave me with the conclusion that in a face-off confrontation, the mature female brown bear and the mature male tiger each stand a 50% chance of a victory or a defeat in a face-to-face encounter.

In the wild, even the largest mature male tiger will very rarely consider an adult female brown bear as potential prey. A tiger never has and never will choose a healthy mature male brown bear as prey. It would therefore make absolutely no sense what-so-ever for a tiger to accept the challenge of a healthy mature male brown bear over a carcass. Why would a tiger be willing to fight a foe face-to-face that he would never dare to attack by ambush unexpectedly from behind? The brown bear is therefore the dominant terrestrial apex predator.

In each and every face-off encounter ever recorded of a healthy mature male brown bear and a tiger, the bear defeated the tiger. How is it then that so many tiger enthusiasts still argue against the facts? - Ridiculous!

Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad
Add Reply

Quick Reply

bbcode help